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Thread: It seems this is not a good time to buy real computers.

  1. #1
    Anodized. Again. Konrad's Avatar
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    Default It seems this is not a good time to buy real computers.

    Not just not a good time. Kind of an awful time.

    And by "real computers" I refer to nice high-/extreme-performance/gaming stuff. Not necessarily the record-breaking overclock platforms, but not far off. Sure, low-end value computing, where bang-for-the-buck is paramount above all else, is pretty impressive. And the middly systems range all over the middle, some of which peaks out surprisingly near the top for not-too-bad pricing.

    I suspect there's basically two reasons for this:

    1)
    Intel and AMD traditionally leapfrog each other, alternately juggling positions on who offers the best tech. Also, incidentally, forcing them to innovate more aggressively and keep their pricing tiers trimmed down. But, in recent years, AMD's focus has been elsewhere and they've lagged considerably in their top PC offerings. While Intel has focussed unchallenged on numerous incremental minor refinements and finer lithography/substrate/microcode technologies which offer diminishing-returns in flat performance but command exponentially inflated prices.

    and 2)
    PCIe 3.0 (GEN3) motherboards, processors, chipsets, and graphic cards are - as always - "just around the corner". Yes, a few offerings do exist, enough to build an entire working GEN3 system. But, when you dig into deep electronic/logic details, these seem to all be PCIe 2.0 platforms which incorporate added parts and complexity to somehow merge PCIe 2.0 components into half as many PCIe 3.0 components. With less than expected performance and reliability. In short - these products are basically PCIe 2.0/3.0 hybrids which are experimentally prototyping PCIe 3.0 implementations, they aren't as good as they should be.

    Any thoughts?
    My mind says Technic, but my body says Duplo.

  2. #2
    Moderator TLHarrell's Avatar
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    Default Re: It seems this is not a good time to buy real computers.

    I'm usually not on the bleeding edge as the bang for the buck starts to fall off pretty rapidly once you get beyond about $2K.
    I have a hammer! I can put things together! I can knock things apart! I can alter my environment at will and make an incredible din all the while! -Calvin

  3. #3
    Why must hard drives fail together? TheMainMan's Avatar
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    Default Re: It seems this is not a good time to buy real computers.

    I feel the same way for both posts actually. In Canada, I would say that $2K becomes more like $2.5K because the economies of scale prevent prices quite as low as in the US but the last time I built a really high end machine I spent a little over $2200 any noticeable performance gains would have taken at least another $200 to hit.

    My primary rig is still running on a Core2 Quad 9550 and until that dies, there isn't a platform out there that really makes me feel the need to upgrade. I know anything Socket 1150 or 2011 would crush my machine but as Konrad mentioned the refinements Intel worked on while AMD ventured into APUs mean that the really high performing 2011s are extremely expensive and while the 1150s are great, they are not worth a $2K+ upgrade for me.

    I would guess that the PCIe cobbling-together will probably happen in the early stages of most generations. My Asus Striker II Formula was one of the first dual 16x PCIe 2.0 boards... at least until you dive into the architecture that underlies the marketing claim. Since they assumed that anyone who would care about dual 16x and PCIe 2.0 would be planning on running an SLI setup, an extra chip was added to the board that links the PCIe slots at full 16x speeds but that chip was only connected to the Northbridge through ...... a link half as big as it provides to the attached slots! Looking at some of the current PCIe 3.0 stuff, the solutions that are being manufactured now seem just as thrown together as back then.

    All that being said, I still like getting to build nice machines for other people
    TheMainMan

  4. #4
    Undead Pirate d_stilgar's Avatar
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    Default Re: It seems this is not a good time to buy real computers.

    I'll agree and disagree to some extent.

    I think now is a pretty exciting time to build. The Q9550 machine I've had as my HTPC has been really unstable, even after I got a new motherboard and ram. Maybe it's a PSU issue. Maybe the hardware is just at it's end of life. But the important thing is that I built that system in 2008 for around $1500 (excluding the case). Today, a $100 i3 CPU will perform faster. It's great. Progress has been great. I can get that machine running for ~$300, and it will be better than my old system in almost every way.

    The bad thing has been that cryptocurrency mining has made AMD chips artificially expensive, which is frustrating, slows progress, and gives AMD incentive to cater their cards more to that purpose.

    Also, 4k monitors are coming down in price really quickly, with some really good offers for relatively cheap prices. If I had the money, I would get a 4k monitor and upgrade my system within the next 9 months. As it is, I'll just wait until HL3 comes out (amiright?). In any case, that new resolution is really demanding, so it's a great motivator to build a new system.

    But if you had a system and all you are doing is running at 1080p, then I don't see what the big deal is. The system I built in 2008 was running a 1920x1200 monitor, and although that system won't run games at full settings anymore, they still look pretty good. Most mid-range hardware can pretty well handle all current games at 1080p on "high" or "highest" settings anymore.

    Not that this is about system building, but VR is finally going to become a thing in a very big and very real way. It's not something that will inspire most people to build a new system (because most systems should be able to handle it already), but if your system isn't fast enough to render out for a VR headset, then I think it's a really strong motivator to build a new system.

  5. #5
    Anodized. Again. Konrad's Avatar
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    Default Re: It seems this is not a good time to buy real computers.

    Hmm, I guess I'm just disillusioned because I wanted to build a nice top-tier system.

    So, say, a Socket LGA2011, X79 chipset, i7 6-core Extreme system? Basically $1750-$2500 for just proc, mobo, and full RAM ... and Intel keeps promising that X99 chipset is coming soon ... and mobo offerings for GEN3 and OC look kinda kludgy and limited right now. Might as well just stick with my trusty old room-heating LGA1366 X58 i7-990X. Bah!

    Or, say, a Socket AM3+, 990FX chipset, AMD FX 8-core Black Edition? $1250-$1750 for just proc, mobo (ASUS Sabertooth 990FX/GEN3 R2.0 or Gigabyte GA-990FXA-UD7?), and full RAM ... again, all the GEN3 looks really kludged and receives poor reviews, and more OC options exist but they aren't really as impressive as the Intel-compatible boards. AMD (or is it ASUS?) apparently still hasn't worked out all the troubly HT 3.1 issues. And, I might be mistaken, but I've always felt that pure-AMD CrossFire systems gotta work a little better than mixed AMD/nVidia SLI counterparts, so there's another $1K for middly-highish pair of x16 AMD Radeons (which don't actually benchmark at true PCIe 3.0 performance levels).

    Stupid computer market. Hurry up and improve!
    My mind says Technic, but my body says Duplo.

  6. #6
    Practice random acts of generosity Omega's Avatar
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    Default Re: It seems this is not a good time to buy real computers.

    I certainly feel like things were better on the processor front back in the days when AMD and Intel were battling it out hard, you could pick up good performing chips for pennies on the dollar because they were trying to out-do and out-sell each other. Plus AMD based systems were often fairly competitive for comparably priced Intel rigs.

    Due to some bad experiences with the AMD end of things in recent times (with my A10-5800K) and baseline performance being another benefit of an Intel rig, there's few reasons to go AMD unless you're seeking budget computing.

    That said, I feel like the graphics war is on. Or rather, is still on. Nvidia and AMD are battling it out there hard, with R9 290Xs and 780Tis, rapid development of new cards and ever increasing insane power outputs from these things. Hell, even my GTX 660 SC does things I could have never imagined, and this is a $200 card.



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  7. #7
    Anodized. Again. Konrad's Avatar
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    Default Re: It seems this is not a good time to buy real computers.

    True, true.

    Even the crappiest mid-end tech today is vastly superior to old stuff and, unless you're an extremist, probably a little overkill for the stuff most of us actually do on our computers.

    I guess it's just a sign that we're getting old.

    Having said that ... I'd still overwhelmingly prefer my ancient 64K Apple II+ clone over some junky Acer/Gateway system.
    My mind says Technic, but my body says Duplo.

  8. #8

    Default Re: It seems this is not a good time to buy real computers.

    I think we cant be up to date with technology.every few month new and new tech coming like you recently buy 1080p 3d moniter then say oh **** i have to buy 4k coz you heard about 4k.we wait till price goes down but when it happen tech is not more new coz generate of new tech so i have to say that its for just rich people to stay up to date with new tech

  9. #9
    100% Recycled Pixels. Twigsoffury's Avatar
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    Default Re: It seems this is not a good time to buy real computers.

    It's been that way since the dawn of electronic time.

  10. #10
    Anodized. Again. Konrad's Avatar
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    Default Re: It seems this is not a good time to buy real computers.

    Necroing myself One Year Later ...

    Leapfrogging competition is a thing of the distant past. Intel is two leaps ahead of AMD, NVidia is two leaps ahead of AMD, both are working out their next tick-tocks while AMD's focus is making new middly cheap little APUs to outperform previous cheap middly APUs. The FX-9590 is a whole lotta hot CPU but it just can't bench as much as an i7-5930K (let alone an i7-5960X), plus it can (at best) be run on an outdated RD990FX+SB950 chipset. AMD's just-announced-latest-greatest (and not quite available) "ultra-enthusiast" R9-390X GPU card appears to be yet another unspectacular rebadge/tweak of the ancient HD79xx Tahiti with some fancy new post-GDDR5 memory technology and not a whole lot else. Press releases speculate (with good reason) that next iterations of PlayStation and Xbox consoles will be built around NVidia GPUs, not AMD APUs/GPUs. More and more enthusiasts, overclockers, modders, and gamers appear to be abandoning the Red Team - pure-AMD fanatics are now becoming a visible minority. Even game engines are now predominantly optimized to run on Intel/NVidia. I'm not sure how AMD fares in the workstation/enterprise market, aside from noticing that Xeon and NVidia offerings appear a whole lot more visible and powerful in comparison.

    I'm thinking this is the end of AMD, at least in terms of high-end computing. They will one day be just another low-end junk maker like Acer and Gateway.
    My mind says Technic, but my body says Duplo.

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