Big Brother and Little Brother :D

**Crazy Buddhist** · 12-13-2008, 03:52 PM

Dave

Originally Posted by DaveW

Frankly CB, I can't believe your counter-argument. At TBCS, I've seen a great number of intelligent and well thought out debates on a range of subject considering religion, philosophy, politics, human rights, and more. This is the first time I've seen such a discussion descend into wild accusations and paranoia.

I agree entirely that my post was passionate. It was not an attempt to go in depth into the philosophical and human rights issues concerned with well thought out arguments, merely an effort to point out that civil liberties are under progressive attack and diminution, and that we let them die at our peril.

I would have thought you above replying with pure ad-hominem attacks, aside from a couple of unsupportable statements/factoids:

Originally Posted by DaveW

Please, show me evidence that such a tool exists. As a (good) computer scientist I can tell you that the technology required to automatically create such a mapping does not exist.

No you can not. You are stating something you can not support. However "good" you might be you don't actually know everything.

Originally Posted by DaveW

Please, show me evidence that such a tool exists

From Social Network Topology Mapping:

Prof. Peter Gloor showed off a tool that takes input from email records or online communities to create maps of social or business interactions, and Chandrika Samarth showed a real-life case study of how such mapping can lead to real process improvements in a real workplace, in this case a hospital. Characteristics like “betweenness,” “connectedness” and “sharing” are important attributes of social network nodes, also known as people. The charts show the communication between people as lines of length and thickness corresponding to the frequency and intensity of the interaction. Interesting data visualization, indeed

Software for Social Network Analysis & Organizational Network Analysis

I haven't even bothered really researching this. That's enough to show you were mistaken - and you can be very sure they (yes the Government) have spent more money developing tools for this than any commercial organisation and that little or no information about such will be in the public domain.

Originally Posted by DaveW

Mainland Europe has Interpol,

Last time I looked Afghanistan and Zimbabwe were not part of Europe. The page on Wikipedia you link to even points out that Interpol is a massively international organisation that expands well beyond Europe.

You like to attack me for the nature of my post but you are stating something as fact "Europe has Interpol" and giving a reference that proves it wrong. Not much of a winning argument that one.

Matthew

**Crazy Buddhist** · 12-14-2008, 04:45 AM

ps

Further exacerbating the situation, social networks also provide a potential channel for peers to express frustrations and challenges, and to identify opportunities with each other, outside traditional structures and processes. The natural impulse in such an open environment may impel government toward control and con-straint rather than facilitation and enablement.

(from an Australian Academic paper)

This is what governments and the very small number of wealthy families that run the show are scared of: we might "identify opportunities with each other, outside of traditional frameworks" - i.e. outside of government control. God forbid that we should do that. So government wants to map and track our every move to nanny us and monitor those things we do "outside of traditional frameworks".

The point here is that governments are increasingly treating all their citizens like criminals and a nanny-state is the result, then inevitably there will be a move towards fascism. This concentration of unbalanced power is unhealthy. It is why people fought for human rights and balance between the state and the individual. I'm not suggesting Gordon Brown is a fascist but once you give government a power it is very hard to take it back - and you never know whose hands it will end up in. In the last seven years all balance has been lost.

BTW ... MP's correspondence is not subject to the freedom of information act. Yet government want free access to all of your information?

Watch this: At least as far as part 8 please and INFORM YOURSELF or the short version below.

http://www.youtube.com/view_play_lis...C3A187BA2F0735

If you follow the Washington Post you see that the level of surveillance that is now directed at us is now so high that when you get on a plane they know what you are reading, who you are sitting next to, where you are going when you get off the plane and the phone number of the person you are going to visit ....

Naomi Wolf - Author

Here's the short version of the above playlist just of her talk without the added information:

**Omega** · 12-20-2008, 05:42 PM

Originally Posted by Crazy Buddhist

Because they have believed a bunch of blatant lies about some guy in a cave in Afghanistan wih a PDA planning and implementing the 9/11 attacks and defeating the hundreds of billions the US spends on security? Likely story yeah. the fact the US had several exercises running that day that confused everyone - coincidence? the fact that building seven was without doubt blown up by implanted explosives and this seems very likely to have precipitated the colapse of Towers 1 & 2.

The fact is that 9/11 is totally debunked and was an inside job created to set up the fear and panic needed to fully domesticate the American polulace (successful). And now there is underway the creation of an artificial global panic and depression that will be used as the excuse for taking away MORE of your rights which you have been carefuly programmed to accept as "essential for your safety".

I don't care who you think you are, but I'm highly offended that you would ever believe this. Keeping in mind that security regulations for people visiting the US AND airline safety were both much more lenient pre-9/11. It's not like it would have been hard to hijack the airplanes, as is obviated by the fact that it happened.

Regardless, the fact that you're willing to attribute the deaths of thousands of innocent people to a government conspiracy is sickening.

**nevermind1534** · 12-20-2008, 06:40 PM

Originally Posted by Omega

I don't care who you think you are, but I'm highly offended that you would ever believe this. Keeping in mind that security regulations for people visiting the US AND airline safety were both much more lenient pre-9/11. It's not like it would have been hard to hijack the airplanes, as is obviated by the fact that it happened.

Regardless, the fact that you're willing to attribute the deaths of thousands of innocent people to a government conspiracy is sickening.

I agree with you. Plus, the government would never be able to carry out something of that scale without anybody leaking the plans. Now, were the london subway bombings, the train spain, and the guy with the bomb in his shoe all the US government? I believe not. The 9/11 conspiracy theorists all argue different things. The government released the tapes from when the plane hit the pentagon that they confiscated.

**Crazy Buddhist** · 12-21-2008, 03:19 AM

Originally Posted by Omega

I don't care who you think you are, but I'm highly offended that you would ever believe this. Keeping in mind that security regulations for people visiting the US AND airline safety were both much more lenient pre-9/11. It's not like it would have been hard to hijack the airplanes, as is obviated by the fact that it happened.

Regardless, the fact that you're willing to attribute the deaths of thousands of innocent people to a government conspiracy is sickening.

Dear Omega,

I know who I am. I am not attributing deaths to a Government conspiracy but a neo-conservative conspiracy that preceeded GW Bush's election.

Realise if you are going to be offended by other peoples beliefs then your life is going to be a nasty rocky road of confrontation.

Several of the alleged hijackers were trained in US military bases, three more lived in the house of an FBI informant and three are currently working for Saudi Airlines as pilots - these are established facts. Nothing to do with belief.

These facts and others make me and millions of other people
believe this was a false-flag operation. We may be wrong or may be right.

I wonder what would be more sickening to you - this being a Government op or people being mistaken in their views?

Of course - if we were right that is more sickening. But it's much more cosy to believe we are wrong.

Best,

Matthew

ps

Originally Posted by nevermind1534

the government would never be able to carry out something of that scale without anybody leaking the plans. Now, were the london subway bombings, the train spain, and the guy with the bomb in his shoe all the US government? I believe not. The 9/11 conspiracy theorists all argue different things. The government released the tapes from when the plane hit the pentagon that they confiscated.

There have been plenty of leaks and on Sep 12th Rumsfeld needed to go on national TV to warn US defence staff not to whistleblow. The patriot act was written before 9/11. Both the Madrid train Bombings and London bombings were probably the work of copycat extremeists. The shoe bomber was just a plain old fruitcake.

I was unaware the government released the tapes. Have you a link?

**Omega** · 12-21-2008, 03:26 AM

Originally Posted by Crazy Buddhist

Dear Omega,

I know who I am. I am not attributing deaths to a Government conspiracy but a neo-conservative conspiracy that preceeded GW Bush's election.

Realise if you are going to be offended by other peoples beliefs then your life is going to be a nasty rocky road of confrontation.

Several of the alleged hijackers were trained in US military bases, three more lived in the house of an FBI informant and three are currently working for Saudi Airlines as pilots - these are established facts. Nothing to do with belief.

These facts and others make me and the millions of other people
believe this was a false-flag operation. We may be wrong or may be right.

I wonder what would be more sickening to you - this being a Government op or people being mistaken in their views?

Of course - if we were right that is more sickening. But it's much more cosy to believe we are wrong.

Best,

Matthew

I'm not easily offended to be honest, but there's a few things, like people calling 9/11 an inside job, that piss me off.

Please, though, show me where you're getting your "facts". I'd very much like to know what information I've supposedly missed out on.

**Crazy Buddhist** · 12-21-2008, 03:30 AM

Dear Omega

It is not my intention to offend.

Originally Posted by Omega

I'm not easily offended to be honest, but there's a few things, like people calling 9/11 an inside job, that piss me off.

Please, though, show me where you're getting your "facts". I'd very much like to know what information I've supposedly missed out on.

I will happily give you links. Will you examine the material with an open mind? You might learn something that will surprise you. You'll need a few hours free.

Matthew

**Omega** · 12-21-2008, 03:34 AM

Originally Posted by Crazy Buddhist

Dear Omega

I will happily give you links. Will you examine the material with an open mind? You might learn something that will surprise you. You'll need a few hours free.

Matthew

I always try to examine data with an open mind. Whether or not it changes my stance is another story, but I'm not going to just shoot it down based on what I already believe.

**Crazy Buddhist** · 12-21-2008, 05:12 AM

Originally Posted by Omega

I always try to examine data with an open mind. Whether or not it changes my stance is another story, but I'm not going to just shoot it down based on what I already believe.

Omega,

My intention is not to convince of conspiracy but to show you there are good reasons to question the official story. I am uploading the best evidential documentary I have at the moment to my server and will post a streaming link to it when done.

It is full of interviews with serious sensible people.

Matthew

**Omega** · 12-21-2008, 05:56 AM

PM me the stuff when it's up. It's 2am here and, well, i'm tired.

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